Just say it, “Illegal Immigrants”. Don’t give me any crap about it either.
No matter what side of the immigration debate you find yourself, the focus of the debate is on those who are here illegally. It’s not a debate about their documentation so don’t call them “undocumented”.
For now, I don’t care if you are for or against amnesty for illegal immigrants or whether or not you want a guest worker program with or without a “path to citizenship”. For purposes of my point at least, I don’t care if you want to round up every illegal alien / immigrant and ship them back or give them a job. I couldn’t care less, for now (read - “this complaint / argument”).
My biggest complaint about changing the term from “illegal immigrants” to “undocumented . . . guest workers . . . temporary sojourners . . . or whatevers” is that by doing so, your attempt to re-focus the issue confirms my suspicion that you really are willing to completely manipulate the political process and look the other way on this, and virtually any other important issue as it long as it suits you and you alone.
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Imagine if California created a new law that made illegal for any non-Californian to move there. And if NY state did the same, and Texas, etc. Let’s assume this would not contradict any Federal law for a second. How aggravated would you be if you were born in, say, Arizona and cannot move to San Francisco to pursue an opportunity? Why illegal? Why can’t someone choose where in this world they want to live? Should you be stuck to the place you were born? Think about it.
Nosy on July 1st, 2007 at 7:39 am | Link
That’s why they call it the “American Dream” - anyone can come here after they wait through the legal process. That’s like saying “why wasn’t I born rich - everyone has the right be born rich.”
Our country is the first of it’s kind. Every country has the right to protect what they have built as a community. It’s not the right of others to barge in without going through the correct processes.
Starts making a little more sense, right?
Christine Givens Hahn on July 1st, 2007 at 8:18 am | Link
expecting the media to become accurately descriptive and to present honest depictions sans all the tortured pc terms and rhetoric regarding this issue would be irrational.
they’ve become transparent to the point of silliness, and laughter is preferable to rage. however when and if the naive, and/or irrational, for whom even the transparent is opaque–such as our first commenter here–reach a certain critical mass, i won’t be laughing, and the way things are going, it could happen.
Personally I get a little angry when it takes my husband and I over 26 months to adopt a child from China because of all the illegal crap clogging our system. The US homeland security ppwk we filed should have taken 3 months, instead it took 8 months!
It wouldn’t be so hard to imigrate here if everyone followed the rules. And, the only ppl welcome here should be those who will positively contribute to our society NOT suck from it. I choose to think my tax dollars go toward the flowers planted in the median.
Yeah, I’m venting. But for the love of God, it’s nearly the 4th of July and there aren’t many of our born citzens who even know what the heck they have here.
A sad state of affairs to say the very least.
Christine Givens Hahn on July 3rd, 2007 at 8:07 pm | Link
ah yes the argument is illegal thats becuse they broke the law, american laws! This makes them by definition illegal. As for a state passing a law restricting immigration of us citizens accross their border they would not stay a state of the USA for long. Hence you are a citizen of the USA not of the state in which you live. There is certainly state residency but used mostly to determine who has paid taxes to the state and who is eleigible for state benefits in that particular state. Most of the illegal aliens in this country are here becuse they can’t make it in their home country becuase of the type of person he/she is not becuase of circumstance. If they were law biding upstanding people they would use the process and procedures. Don’t be fooled of a minute their are plenty of very wealthy successfull people in other countries and yes even Mexico.
Mark on July 24th, 2007 at 10:16 am | Link
Oh yes and critical mass hmm thats how much mass it takes for thermonuclear fission to take place. as far as the media and PC I think were almost there! It will be a great day to see a complete self desctruct of those mainstream media hoseheads.
Mark on July 24th, 2007 at 10:17 am | Link
I need to know how to turn in a family of Illegal critzen who live above us. can some one help us plese.
nancyhaft on October 8th, 2007 at 3:17 pm | Link
Oh no! Not Critzen!!!
Un, actually “illegal immigrants” is inaccurate too. The proper phrase is “illegal aliens”. Immigrants come to this country legally. This corruption of the language is brought to you by those trying to presume a certain conclusion to this issue. My favorite such advocacy group is “Mexican’s Without Borders”.
Chuck on October 14th, 2007 at 6:54 am | Link
This is what you said. Please explain because that doesn’t make any sense. What the hell does that have to do with the Mexican (or otherwise) border? People like you think it’s just so easy to follow the rules, apply for a passport, and bam! you’re here in America legally. This is not at all the case, and you know it. So quit acting like its so easy.
Everyone wants to come to America. You can’t blame them. Did you know that the U.S. only allows for a maximum of 270,000 visas anually? Take that.
student in high school on November 16th, 2007 at 9:36 am | Link
Duh, thats exactly what Christine said is what you have reiterated. Maybe you should pay a bit better attention in your high school studies and you would know these things but you can’t pay attention to a written post how could you pay attention in class?
Anyway INS is so busy taking care of the borders that they have such an incredible backlog it takes forever for the legal process to move!
mark on November 17th, 2007 at 4:44 pm | Link
Hi Im American Citizen and live in NY. I think the law is not fair.I been married to my husband who lives in Kosovo for 6 yrs. 6yrs ago he tried to come ilegal in America and he has been cought in Kosovo.He paid 50 euro for what he had done.When i got married to him i tried to bring him here and his papers got denied because he broke the law by attempting to come ilegal.I think it’s crazy.I been with him for almost 10 yrs and married for 6.I told them why he tried ilegal and they don’t care, they told me to go and live back with him.I think they are not fair and law is not fair. An American Citizen to sufur for almost nothing it’s not fair.
Anyway, I HAT ETHE LAW IN AMERICA.They don’t have the same law for everybody.
Kosova on December 2nd, 2007 at 2:31 pm | Link
If you hate america so much leave it!!!!!!
mark on December 3rd, 2007 at 5:00 pm | Link
Laws are not permanent. They can be revised, overruled, upheld etc… The “illegal” label is not permanent either. However by adding “illegal” to “alien” that creates a Frame for the discussion in those terms and with certain assumptions before anything else is said. the most neutral thing to do would be to toss out “illegal” AND “undocumented” and just call them “aliens.” At least that exposes the xenophobe nature of the majority of Americans that aren’t in the West or East coast without trying to stack the cards in favor or against the “aliens”.
The media (the 4th Branch of Government) adds this words on purpose, as part of their spin campaigns. Once they suceed at establishing a certain Frame that they can use to create their Spin, the rest of the discussion happens in those terms. That’s why Republicans like calling them “illegals” and Democrats “undocumented.”
Just my 2 cents
The Logos on April 11th, 2008 at 2:19 pm | Link
They are called illegal because they came to this country illegally. Perhaps you would prefer to call them offender aliens since that is what we now call our prison inmates. Republicans call them illegal aliens because that is what they are and the republican party is somewhat less likely to succumb to the political correctness that somehow against all majority has become the not accepted but required lingo. This is why the Democrats prefer to call them undocumented because it is perceived to be politically correct (what the hell ever that means).
why pray tell would you want to call them something neutral? As far a xenophobe most fears are based in reality such a fear of height and what could happen.
There is a way to come to this country and do it within the bounds of our laws. When people break our laws they are criminals so perhaps we should call them criminal aliens. Any way I say call it what it is. If its a tiger call it a tiger (Siegfried and Roy) if its a criminal lets call it a criminal if its an illegal lets call it an illegal……
The Media the 4th branch of government. Oh man do you have that right the 4th and most powerful branch of government (and wholly unelected) and you say we live in a republic?
Ok so the 5th branch of government must be the banks
The 6th the insurance companies.
sorry for the off topic but I think Logos brings up a very important and topic here!
mark on April 11th, 2008 at 7:36 pm | Link
“They are called illegal because they came to this country illegally.”
-mark
The problem with the illegal label is that its a label that should describe your status and not your person. People are not illegal, but their actions can be. Especially if it is an isolated illegal action and if the laws are more than likely going to change so that that action will in retrospect no longer be considered illegal.
“why pray tell would you want to call them something neutral?”
-mark
The reason you want a neutral term for these individuals is because its in the best interests of fairness that neither political party exploits their human suffering to advance their political ends. That’s why I disagree with creating a debate about the issue in terms of “illegals” OR “undocumented” aliens.
“As far a xenophobe most fears are based in reality such a fear of height and what could happen.”
-mark
I imagine the argument you’re trying to make is: 1-)since fears are based in reality and 2-)they represent a concern for future outcomes; then it is ok to be xenophobic. But the reality is that stereotypes are also based on reality, yet few would agree that they’re a positive thing. The truth is that the United States is not as accepting of immigrants as it once was. Years of the media and the government cultivating fear-of-the-other in the population have given rise to today’s climate of intolerance. Add to that economic decline that US has been experiencing and you have all the elements for xenophobia. Obama was right when he said simple minded, small town people cling to religion/superstition and guns to protect them from the looming evil ahead personified in Al Quaeda, immigrants, avian flu, North Korea, Hugo Chavez etc etc etc…
The Logos on April 14th, 2008 at 8:16 am | Link
yes the label (Illegal alien) does describe the status of person who came to this coutnry illegally simple and without argument they are people who broke the law of the USA. Illegal alien describes their status just like alien describes the status of someone who came to this country from somwhere else. So you can say this about an illegal alien they are humans, they are aliens they are illegal aliens all descriptors of who and what they are and what status they hold among their fellows.
Fairness who ever said life is fair. Life is hardly ever fair. Take those for example who are born with defects to thier person. Take those for example who are born into leadership prince blah blah or those who are born into wealth kennedy all over the place here. Were the illegals playing the game fair when they made to choice to violate USA laws and enter our country. The politcal ends you and both know is staying in power if they can get these poeple to vote and vote for the specific politician they get to reamin in power.
Human suffereing is a product of failed, corrupt, greedy leadership not of the people. It is therefore not a problem for us to fix. As James said early on a similar thread
“How is that our fault? Why don’t they use the USA as a model for their own country rather than steal from us?
Should we just let all 6 billion people in the world come here?”
When and if we are talking about Mexico which most are when discussing this topic even tho it spans various other countries. Mexico is a very large very beutiful country highly rich in resources just wainting for develpment. There is no reason Mexico can not be prosperous on their own accord if it were not for the corrupt government. So we really have no place here talking of human suffereing.
Actually the point I am making with fears are usually based in reality is not a pridiction of future outcomes. It is simply that a fear is a fear becuse it can happen or has happened. I totally agree that sterotypes are based in reality and most agree they are not a good thing. As it leads those in the sterotype class to act a certain way and for other to expect that certain action. This is where you must take martin luther kings words to heart “judge me not by the color of my skin but by the depth of my character.” and here we have illgal aliens breaking our laws which shows a profound lack of character.
The truth is as you say the USA is not as acepting of immigrants as they once were. Well as Judge Koch was once quotes as saying “I have never met anyone who once moves to the USA want to leave” this means we have a whole lotta people wanting to come here. If we just roll over and let them all in you want to talk about human suffering that is when we can begin that discussion.
I would bet most people who are against illegal immigration have at one time or another been affected by the illegals and not an all out media blitz creating these fears.
If you have ever gone to a small town see how simple minded those folks are. some the biggest best and brightest come from small towns.
As for those of you who claim to be the open minded Well if you open your mind there are those all around who will throw garbage in without your consent. “He who does not stand for something will fall for anything.”
So I can tell you want to take our guns away now! Follow the path of Hitler and see what then maybe we can discuss Human suffarage.
Tell me you don’t fear as an American Hugo Chaves, North Korea Al Queaeda those who want us dead those who want to see us suffer. Ask then after those folk have their way again about human suffarage.
mark on April 14th, 2008 at 1:31 pm | Link
There was a time when I really sympathized with the illegals. I mean, as a human, who doesn’t want a better life for their family? EVERYONE DOES! Does that mean everyone in the world that wants to work in the US and send their money back to another country should move to the US? Absolutly not.
Try to think of it like this: if you are poor because you live in a bad neighborhood and have bad parents that you could just pack a bag and move to France or Sweden? Absolutly not. Countries are countries because they have laws that must be followed. I can’t live in France just because I decided I want to and illegals (no matter the country) can’t live in America because they want to. PERIOD. Step up the border control. We don’t need another 9/11 and I know plenty of legals who need a job. Our own citizens can build houses just fine, thank you.
My Two Cents on June 9th, 2008 at 4:44 pm | Link
*****Guys, I think we all need to relax on this issue. Honestly, if you dig deep in your family history, I am sure you will find that at least one of your ancestors came to this country “illegally”. (unless you are 100% “Native American” or Indian). I don’t live in your country, but let me tell you, there is Xenophobia everywhere. There are American fundamental concepts I cannot agree with, such as “Love it or leave it” (how’s that for shortsight) “9/11 changed everything” (90% of people who died wer NOT americans), “We must impose our way of life in other countries” (specially if they have lots of oil). Think about it, your president did not even win the elections… Finally, picture yourself doing dishes (or picking strawberries) for 12 hours straight every day, for 5.75/hr., without any benefits and scared of people around you.
Let’s not forget that their taxes are deducted automatically from their paychecks, so they pay taxes and help America be what it is. If your ancestors were around, they would probably tell you that people back then were not as hostile as you guys are to foreigners.
What’s more “Illegal” a person who rapes children, or poisons your society with drugs (or with propaganda, like CNN) or an individual who does the dirty jobs for next to nothing, pays taxes and is not even allowed to drive to work? and on top of that has to put up with closed minded people like you?
mao fab on June 27th, 2008 at 9:30 pm | Link
@Mao fab NO NO NO most of us in the USA do not have illegal alien ancestors. See for there to be a law broken there first has to be a law. Most of the settlers of this country came here long before there were laws.
Thank god you do not live in our country! Hey love it or leave it yeah why should you stay in a place you hate? The Mexicans don’t they come here to the USA. Anyway if you don’t love where you are then make your plans and legally relocate yourself. Someone above said its not easy to just get your passport and visa and move. No it is not and it should not be. Afterall many people in this country have fought and lost thier lives for our freedoms and it should be work for anyone to gain those freedoms we fight so dearly for! So do it in your own country you don’t like it change it!
yes our president did win the election. The supreme court ruled he did and that is all that can be said.
For the millionth time here illegals do not pay taxes. If they do it is by voluntary donation to the government. Employers cannot hire illegals without facing large fines and even imprisonment.
mark on July 1st, 2008 at 12:42 pm | Link
Just to clarify. Illegal aliens, undocumented, or whatever you want to call them do pay taxes. They get their taxes witheld every paycheck and they cannot file a return, ergo they can never get a reimbursement from the government. So, you can say they don’t file a tax return, but don’t say they don’t pay taxes because they end up paying more taxes than you and me.
On the take or leave it, why is it that there cannot be an adult discussion about the pros and cons of the government and society? It’s not personal, it’s not hate, there are just facts.
Speaking of “freedoms” as Mark calls them, who has died for “our freedoms”? Soldiers in this country die because the government sends them out to mess in other countries’ businesses, nobody has threatened this country since Pearl Harbor. Let’s face the facts.
As for legally relocating, give me a break, the human rights declaration gives you the right to emigrate but not to immigrate.
All these are just points of view, nobody needs to feel personally attacked.
Claudia on July 8th, 2008 at 8:16 am | Link
Claudia,
First lets get this tax thing right once and for all. If an employeer hires an employee who is here in this country illegally they face (if caught)
Here is a link to over 30 cases just this year, http://www.ice.gov/pi/investig.....D%20aliens
showing ice involement with those who hire illegal aliens. If you know of people who are getting taxes withheld who are illegal aliens you can bet 1 of several things are going on. 1. the employer is deducting the taxes but not submitting or reporting them to the Governmnet. 2. The illegal alien has provided the employer with false documentation. 3. The empolyeer is taking a big risk of getting caught hiring illegals. (actually anyone who works in the USA is required to pay taxes, but employeers are not usually goning to risk federal prison for tax sake.
“Speaking of “freedoms” as Mark calls them, who has died for “our freedoms”? Soldiers in this country die because the government sends them out to mess in other countries’ businesses, nobody has threatened this country since Pearl Harbor. Let’s face the facts.”
The fact huh? you say nobody has threatened this country since Pearl Harbor? Where have you been living for the past 30 years with your head in the sand? First lets see back in the 80 was it the Iranians took 50 US hostages. Is that not a fact, is that not a threat. Let remember back to the rein of or great Bill Clinton and the word trade center attack. Is than not a fact, is thatn not a threat. Also in Clintonian era there was a horrific attack on a major military target the USS Cole, is that not fact, is that not a threat. Now least we forget they blew up our buildings hmm that was a whopping 7 years ago now! Is that not fact, and ill save the rheroric here it was a threat.
Now lets talk a little bit about the soilders. Not a one of the soilders sent into war was forced. We unlike almost any others have a totally volunterr army. Are there those soilder who do not beleive in the mission their assigned? Im sure there are specially with those like you who are constantly trying to convince them they are serving no purpose. However If you look the vast majority of our soilders are very proud and beileve whole heartedly in what we are doing. Visiting with one soilder a few years ago there was comment out of his mouth that people have no idea what is going on in Iraq and the media is missleading the people to such a degree he would like to nuke the media. (pretty powerful statement) So that is who is currently fighting for our rights and freedoms. im not sure about you but I don’t want to be muslim that is what they want and is yet another argument).
” human rights declaration” is a document written by the United Nations. We do not go by the opion of the UN when dealing with our own country. Where the UN may have some unguided sorroful clout when it comes to influencing US internation policy they do not when we talk about our homeland. The UN is a worthless and failed attempt at establsihing a one world government. I don’t know about you but the governments have allready take way too much of my money and use it in a wastful maner. They also already tell me what to do way too many times and have overstepped their intent and are curretnly infringing upon the lives of our citizens way too much.
mark on July 8th, 2008 at 9:18 am | Link
at mark:
I understand your points, but there are other issues to consider when adopting such a hostile position. When your ancestors went to what now is the USA (or what was Mexico before your country invaded it and basically stole half of Mexico in the late 1800´s) there were no “white” laws to be broken, but what about the laws that people who lived there had? Same as now. If I wanted to go to the States I could stupidly say, I am not breaking any of MY LAWS. What about US laws? I am sure that the Indians back then wanted your grandparents as much as you want the new immigrants now. Yes nobody called the Mexicans to go to your country, but at least they are there to do the dirty jobs and somehow contribute to the society. Unlike the US Army that goes into weak (oil rich) countries uninvited also, but waging guns, bombs and a lifestyle that not everybody in the world necessarily would like to have.
Facts are facts. Since Hitler invade Poland, (about 70 years ago) your volunteered Army has invaded, or bombed PANAMA, GRENADA, CUBA, HAITI, SOMALIA, SUDAN,BOSNIA, KOSOVO, SERBIA LIBYA, JAPAN, KOREA, VIET NAM, LAOS, CAMBODIA IRAK (twice) AFGHANISTAN. Let´s not forget the declared war on terrorism, on cancer and poverty. In case you did not know, the US spends more in military than the next 21 highest spending countries put together, including China, Russia, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Israel. Talk about walking with the chip on the shoulder as the saying goes…Now believing that the US is peace loving country is a bit far from the reality. I think that if the US were a man, instead of a country, he would be schizophrenic to say the least. It would be like a New York thug who has a serious fight a day believing he is a mild guy. Now that´s spoon feeding or plain denial.
Kill a man or 2 in GW Bush´s Texas and you are put to death. Kill scores in the name of War against terrorism and nothing happens to you.
Weapons of mass destructions used as pretext to kill innocent people. NONE FOUND. If they were found, please enlighten me… you would be the first in the world. UN´s Hans Blix came up dry. CIA´s David Kay came up dry. as well as Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair. And Mr. Bin Laden still at large…
Reminds me of one of the great slogans of all time: “Bread and circus for the masses”
By the way, I am not liberal (not being from the US) I would not know how to describe such a person. I am instead, pragmatic and not blind. If with my rhetoric I have offended someone, I apologize, it was not my intention
regards
mao fab
mao fab on July 8th, 2008 at 4:14 pm | Link